Curse

Zena Starlight · Sep 01, 2009, 03:41 AM // 03:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Animate

When they can add an isle for pets without removing any other arena(lol), why not simply add another isle for Sealed Deck?

I second this. They can just add another outpost like they did to the Menagerie.

But, overall /signed because TA is the only format that I enjoy and it would be unfortunate that have it deleted even before it had some updates.

Greedy Gus · Sep 01, 2009, 04:13 AM // 04:13

TA as it stands has just been awful for years. Its not anything to do with the format really, just amplifying all the balance problems plus being consumed by title farmers instead of people who like to pvp (so every team is just some overload, in different directions, trying to get gimmick/build wins). I always want to do TA, and I always have to quit on my guildies after a handful of matches to avoid wanting to kill myself.

If they're not willing/able to put in time for a real fix, I'm all for going with something new.

snaek · Sep 01, 2009, 04:16 AM // 04:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by |raedem|

I really don't understand why people believe TA is broken. If anything, it is the most balanced format in all of GW (which in turn makes it increasingly more boring as time drags on).

agree (well except for the boring part). ive been saying this for a long time to all my ha friends.

tbh, i think if we were to ever be taken serious in wanting ta to be kept, we need to make it easy for anet; provide exact problems and possible solutions. that way, anet doesn't even need to think, just implement. i'll start with one of the more obvious:

1) change holy strike/stonesoul strike--damage reduction and/or functionality change on one of them (i personally feel that duplicate skills are not good for the game).

the_deSKtructor · Sep 01, 2009, 06:17 AM // 06:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

agree (well except for the boring part). ive been saying this for a long time to all my ha friends.

tbh, i think if we were to ever be taken serious in wanting ta to be kept, we need to make it easy for anet; provide exact problems and possible solutions. that way, anet doesn't even need to think, just implement. i'll start with one of the more obvious:

1) change holy strike/stonesoul strike--damage reduction and/or functionality change on one of them (i personally feel that duplicate skills are not good for the game).

What you say has been done for ages. Just check out for all the skill balance thread that has been made in the past. People here just can't bother anymore because they saw that it was completely useless to make those suggestions, and nobody here wants to waste time.

-Vertex- · Sep 01, 2009, 06:53 AM // 06:53

TA really only needs a few skill changes to nerf/remove the most powerful gimmicks.

First of all, i disagree with this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by |Readem|

The reason TA is becoming stale, is merely because FF/Mbane is so powerful in 4v4. Tone them down, and people will start to see more build variety and activity.

Conditions are very powerful and are only balanced in 8vs8 cause there are several Monk elites that can deal with them, such as RC or LS. In TA you usually can't dedicate your only Monk's elite to removing conditions so you have to stick with the non-elite options which all suck pretty hard with the sole exception of FF. If FF gets killed people will run either 2 Monk backlines or take a Paragon with "It's a Flesh Wound!", which will probably result in a 2 Monk + 2 Melee vs W/R/P/Mo vs Condover + Humsig metagame. And seriously, if anything that would be worse than the meta we have now

Nerfing Magebane would do nothing, people would just take other elites. If you want to remove Rangers from TA you have to nerf Dshot

Ok, to the skill changes:

1. Change Stonesoul Strike to a different functionality.

Shove is by far the most powerful build in TA, so killing it is a must for any attempt at balancing the arena. Beating a decent Shove without heavy speccing is almost impossible, a good Shove is nearly undefeatable as the build is flexible enough to even counter most "Anti-Skills".
The main problem isn't the spike, but the abuse of the TA map constructions which highly favor shadowstepping and positioning (which is generally a good thing) by running and porting over the whole map which makes it almost impossible to catch and kill a decent Shove Spike without running heavy snares. However, without adding an utopic Tiebreaker to TA nerfing the spike skills is probably the best way to kill the build.

2. Change Enraging Lunge to do armor dependant damage.

+80 armor ignoring damage is just too much for obvious reasons. Change the skill to do 80 base damage (like shattering assault does) instead of +80 so people can actually use a slashing/piercing shield to reduce the damage.

3. Change Mind Blast to 3s recharge and reduce the damage of Immolate to what it had before the last buff.

The MB template just does too much steady damage. You can reach 50-60 dps on a 60 armor target. That is more than a warrior on frenzy does, at range. On a different note i must say it is probably the most boring and brainless build that i have ever played, only beat by Ursan in PvE. In a game that claims that success has to be achieved by skill, templates like this just shouldn't be effective.

4. Reduce the blind duration of Ebon Dust Aura.

Since the FF nerf Condition builds revolving around blind and daze have become very effective again. I think this skill could need a slight nerf, as it is too easy to keep blind on 2 or 3 targets with an EDA D/P.

That is all i can think of right now. As i mentioned a tiebreaker would be cool as people can just run 4 Monks or something to draw and grief people but that's pretty much out of sight i guess. However, nerfing Shove alone would make TA more balanced than GvG is right now, so far for degenerate metagames...

the_deSKtructor · Sep 01, 2009, 11:04 AM // 11:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Vertex-

Conditions are very powerful and are only balanced in 8vs8 cause there are several Monk elites that can deal with them, such as RC or LS.

That's not completely true. The main strenght of conditions is that they are easily spreadable, so that they can be applied on different targets at the same time. Reducing the dimension of the teams also reduces their effectiveness.

Quote:

In TA you usually can't dedicate your only Monk's elite to removing conditions so you have to stick with the non-elite options which all suck pretty hard with the sole exception of FF. If FF gets killed people will run either 2 Monk backlines or take a Paragon with "It's a Flesh Wound!", which will probably result in a 2 Monk + 2 Melee vs W/R/P/Mo vs Condover + Humsig metagame.

Before the change to Foul Feast, people could still deal with conditions, with some exception (read Ebon Dust Aura). All you had to do was to pack in the monk bar some kind of condition removal and have a Mending Touch on the ranger. Foul Feast coupled with Plague Sending is way too powerful for a number of reasons. Foul Feast provides an excellent condition removal skill which doesn't need any kind of energy managment, and Plague Sending sends those condition back making the use of the conditions a suicide (for example, almost nobody runs Crippling Slash). Then people realized that running condition removal on the monk wasn't necessary and lead to the fortress monks we have nowadays, that in my opinion aren't healthy for the game.

Quote:

Nerfing Magebane would do nothing, people would just take other elites. If you want to remove Rangers from TA you have to nerf Dshot

I agree with you here

Quote:

Ok, to the skill changes:

1. Change Stonesoul Strike to a different functionality.

Shove is by far the most powerful build in TA, so killing it is a must for any attempt at balancing the arena. Beating a decent Shove without heavy speccing is almost impossible, a good Shove is nearly undefeatable as the build is flexible enough to even counter most "Anti-Skills".
The main problem isn't the spike, but the abuse of the TA map constructions which highly favor shadowstepping and positioning (which is generally a good thing) by running and porting over the whole map which makes it almost impossible to catch and kill a decent Shove Spike without running heavy snares. However, without adding an utopic Tiebreaker to TA nerfing the spike skills is probably the best way to kill the build.

I'm not so sure about this, i would rather see the shadow steps killed so that you can actually try killing them.

Quote:

2. Change Enraging Lunge to do armor dependant damage.

+80 armor ignoring damage is just too much for obvious reasons. Change the skill to do 80 base damage (like shattering assault does) instead of +80 so people can actually use a slashing/piercing shield to reduce the damage.

Agree with Enraging Lunge being too powerful.

Quote:

3. Change Mind Blast to 3s recharge and reduce the damage of Immolate to what it had before the last buff.

The MB template just does too much steady damage. You can reach 50-60 dps on a 60 armor target. That is more than a warrior on frenzy does, at range. On a different note i must say it is probably the most boring and brainless build that i have ever played, only beat by Ursan in PvE. In a game that claims that success has to be achieved by skill, templates like this just shouldn't be effective.

I think that GvG players should suggets the balance for this, since it's a much bigger problem in their formats.

Quote:

4. Reduce the blind duration of Ebon Dust Aura.

Since the FF nerf Condition builds revolving around blind and daze have become very effective again. I think this skill could need a slight nerf, as it is too easy to keep blind on 2 or 3 targets with an EDA D/P.

Agree.

S C H Ni T Z E L · Sep 01, 2009, 02:28 PM // 14:28

/signed
ta needs no balancedupdates. just let lightningreflexed end if u hit with a not bow attack and ta will be balanced again. this nerf will be good for hb ha and gvg too so ta will not cost u one cent less if u remove it.

snaek · Sep 01, 2009, 03:16 PM // 15:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_desktructor

I'm not so sure about this, i would rather see the shadow steps killed so that you can actually try killing them.

if shovespike can no longer kill, theres no reason to run it anymore (unless people are really set on running grief builds...but for that theres always the 4 a/ shadowmeld team)

Quote:

Originally Posted by -vertex-

3. Change Mind Blast to 3s recharge and reduce the damage of Immolate to what it had before the last buff.

i would like to see mind blast moved to energy storage, and require high attrib investment, along with distortion requiring a higher pt investment to be effective. this does a few things: 1) remove points from either fire magic and lose to dmg to keep a decently spec'd distortion otherwise have to lose distortion from their bar, 2) promote element variety away from just fire eles. as for the e/d template in gvg, they already somewhat toned down wind prayers and they said they are going to fix the tie breaker mechanic.

Slic · Sep 01, 2009, 06:18 PM // 18:18

/sign

DO NOT (literally) make sync RA the new TA! You don't want to lose the remainder of the semi-casual pvp-ers because they can't play RA without running into a sync team every game. Don't remove TA, because the meta sucks. Buff some straight-damage skills, buff 90% of the skill base and you won't have bad meta where the only viable thing to run is balanced crap.

scruffy · Sep 01, 2009, 06:23 PM // 18:23

i dont see anybody complaining in this thread actually playing TA, since theres a total of like 2 teams every day.

remove it good riddance

Osiris_sam · Sep 01, 2009, 07:08 PM // 19:08

@scruffy, clearly you dont play much then. nuff said

TA is tollerable when not facing shovespike, hexway or R/A(s-way) (no need to say what the s stands for here)

Having said that. ive totally given up (esp after the last update) on anet ever producing something that even resembles a skill balance. (gg for random buffs to crp that doesnt need buffs in the first place, real STRONG balance decision there.) i would settle for some key nerfs, bt lets face life, its never going to happen, well maybe when hell freezes over

that being said, id rather face s-way in TA than in GvG

-Vertex- · Sep 01, 2009, 08:52 PM // 20:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_deSKtructor

That's not completely true. The main strenght of conditions is that they are easily spreadable, so that they can be applied on different targets at the same time. Reducing the dimension of the teams also reduces their effectiveness.

Well, if you talk about Poison or Disease yes, but e.g. Blind and Daze are only balanced cause you can easily remove them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_deSKtructor

Before the change to Foul Feast, people could still deal with conditions, with some exception (read Ebon Dust Aura). All you had to do was to pack in the monk bar some kind of condition removal and have a Mending Touch on the ranger. Foul Feast coupled with Plague Sending is way too powerful for a number of reasons. Foul Feast provides an excellent condition removal skill which doesn't need any kind of energy managment, and Plague Sending sends those condition back making the use of the conditions a suicide (for example, almost nobody runs Crippling Slash). Then people realized that running condition removal on the monk wasn't necessary and lead to the fortress monks we have nowadays, that in my opinion aren't healthy for the game.

1 word: Powercreep. Running draw on Monk and Mendtouch would be just sub-par nowadays. People can kill stuff with 2 Melees now so they will just take 2 Monks. I'm pretty sure nerfing FF again would result in the metagame i've described above.

Another thing:

I think Mantra of Resolve and Pious Concentration should be nerfed. It's a problem in Hex and Condover builds and i really don't see why a mechanic that prevents interrupts should even exist.

To sum it up: The only skill change i suggested that would have any impact on GvG is Mind Blast and the GvG community has been asking for a nerf to this skill since months anyway. The mantras are usually only used to cast Humsig, which could be buffed to 2s cast again in exchange. The argument that 4vs4 can't be balanced cause the game was made for 8vs8 is completely void imo. Strong 4vs4 skills are usually also strong split skills, so there is a direct link from GvG to TA, for which the game is balanced after all.

Alwina · Sep 01, 2009, 10:24 PM // 22:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Vertex-

Another thing:

I think Mantra of Resolve and Pious Concentration should be nerfed. It's a problem in Hex and Condover builds and i really don't see why a mechanic that prevents interrupts should even exist.

Ye!

Good ppl fake anyway if they get ranger aggro.
But it's good for: "1 tab 2 tab 3 tab 1 tab 2 tab 3...."

Dunno but it's the most annoying on dazeway... R/D with pious and BHA - gg

Opulentus Magus · Sep 02, 2009, 12:49 AM // 00:49

/signed
Don't remove TA! It's one of the few things left in guild wars that's still good.

I Jonas I · Sep 02, 2009, 03:59 AM // 03:59

The addition of SD is a completely separate issue from the deletion of TA. I think SD is a pretty neat idea. deleting TA on the other hand is retarded.

Consequences of keeping the format alive: none

Consequences of deleting the format: the people that enjoy it can't play

I don't see how you can make an argument for it's deletion. If you don't want to play TA, just don't play it. I don't know how Anet could rationalize deleting it for this reason.

Master Ketsu · Sep 02, 2009, 04:03 AM // 04:03

Here are the nerfs most people who TA can agree with would save or at least help TA:

Foul Feast: 0...1...2 energy. Max 5 energy gained.

Plague sending: 5E, 12R -or- 2 sec cast time.

August skill update 2009: Revert it.

-ALL No att/unlinked shadow step skills- : Move to critical strikes, 50% failure with CS 4 or less.

Shove: Fails if you are enchanted.

Visions of regret: Conditional damage negation applied to all hexes, not just Mesmer ones.

Distortion: Duration based on illusion, energy loss based on Fast casting. ( or some similar nerf that causes the skill to be only usable by Me/ )

Mind blast: 0...3...6 energy.

Primal Rage: Smiters boon.

Shield Bash: 3 sec duration @ 0 strength.

-Notice how these changes are not much and would help other formats as well.

Regulus X · Sep 02, 2009, 04:10 AM // 04:10

Delete HB [not 100% PvP to begin with]
Keep TA [100% Organized 4v4]

Additionally, I'd even suggest that they reward players much, MUCH more in TA than in RA, that way players are rewarded more for their extra invested effort in forming a group and winning, and those who decide to stay and farm RA all day can still be rewarded, just not nearly as much. Doubling glad points in TA would also accelerate maxing Gladiator [which is nearly impossible atm tbh.. -.-].

Oh, and give us an /emote ffs! Give us gladiators something to show for earning one of the tougher titles in GW1 on top of trying to get us to buy pretty little wings [after having purchased Aion].

Master Ketsu · Sep 02, 2009, 04:16 AM // 04:16

Quote:

which is nearly impossible atm tbh.. -.-

True...Gladiator is an insane title to try and max. I am 300 points away from Glad 7, and while most people would consider that a fairly high rank it's still not even close.

Legendary Shiz · Sep 02, 2009, 05:54 AM // 05:54

The Glad title isn't about maxing, just like the Hero title trach isn't about maxing. However, I do think that rewarding TA play without a skill balance would be extremely detrimental to the arena. The skill balance should be first and foremost in the effort to save TA. Without it, there really isn't much hope.

I'm glad they are implementing a Sealed Deck arena, I just think it's a huge waste to do it at the expense of TA.

the_deSKtructor · Sep 02, 2009, 07:06 AM // 07:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Vertex-

Well, if you talk about Poison or Disease yes, but e.g. Blind and Daze are only balanced cause you can easily remove them.

Those conditions are balanced by the means that they aren't that easy to apply, with the exception of Ebon Dust Aura which deserves to die.

Quote:

1 word: Powercreep. Running draw on Monk and Mendtouch would be just sub-par nowadays. People can kill stuff with 2 Melees now so they will just take 2 Monks. I'm pretty sure nerfing FF again would result in the metagame i've described above.

Ok, let's put it in this way. When i talk about nerfing Foul Feast/Plague Sending, i actually mean minor nerfs. Foul Feast should be changed in order to provide less energy.

For example changing this:

Transfers all conditions from target ally to yourself. You gain 0...36 Health and 0...2 Energy for each condition transfered.

to

Transfers all conditions from target ally to yourself. You gain 0...36 Health for each condition transfered and 0...2 energy if you remove more than 1 condition.

without changing Cast time, recharge and cost wouldn't kill the skill, yet it would make it less retarded.

Also if you compare Plague Signet, Plague Sending and Plague Touch i think that you will be able to easily understand why Plague Sending is over the top.

Removing the AoE effect, reducing the duration of sent back conditions, touching cost/recharge would be all effective ways to balance it (i'm not saying to change all of those).

Quote:

Another thing:

I think Mantra of Resolve and Pious Concentration should be nerfed. It's a problem in Hex and Condover builds and i really don't see why a mechanic that prevents interrupts should even exist.

Agree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Ketsu

Here are the nerfs most people who TA can agree with would save or at least help TA:

Foul Feast: 0...1...2 energy. Max 5 energy gained.

Plague sending: 5E, 12R -or- 2 sec cast time.

August skill update 2009: Revert it.

-ALL No att/unlinked shadow step skills- : Move to critical strikes, 50% failure with CS 4 or less.

Shove: lose all enchantments.

Visions of regret: Conditional damage negation applied to all hexes, not just Mesmer ones.

Distortion: Duration based on illusion, energy loss based on Fast casting. ( or some similar nerf that causes the skill to be only usable by Me/ )

Mind blast: 0...3...6 energy.

Primal Rage: Smiters boon.

Shield Bash: 3 sec duration @ 0 strength.

-Notice how these changes are not much and would help other formats as well.

This looks good aswell.